Richard Carrier: Inept Idiot or Ignorant Simpleton?

This train wreck brought to you by…

Richard Carrier has had aspired to have one of his letters to Penthouse printed for years. As of late he has become frustrated with the ongoing rejections he has received. Since Dick can’t get Penthouse to print him his posted this- Michael Shermer: Rapist or Sleaze?

Here is one portion-

Scenario A: You finally get to meet a big celebrity, for the first time, someone you really love and admire, and you’re at a party having drinks together, sitting at a table. He shows a lot of interest in you, asks you lots of questions, listens intently. Your conversation is so animated, in fact, his focus on you so engaging, that you don’t even notice that he keeps filling your wine glass, and you don’t realize how much you’ve had.

Then you start to feel you must have drunk too much, your vision is blurring and you feel a little dizzy. He shows concern, and offers to take you to your room. You get up and almost fall, you are having difficulty keeping upright. He supports you, and in his arms walks you to the elevator, and your room. You are really out of it and at this point can barely think straight and can’t navigate on your own. You have difficulty walking. At first you aren’t even sure it was your room he took you to.

He gets you to the bed and your head is swimming. You’re struggling not to pass out. You can’t speak coherently. He starts kissing and fondling you, then undressing you, then…everything else. You are too drunk to resist. And you are too surprised to speak. You just think to yourself, in a bit of shock… Oh. Okay. So this is happening. You never asked for it, and he never asked you if you did. It wasn’t even a subject you’d ever discussed or hinted at. And once it’s begun you aren’t sure how to stop it. You aren’t even thinking clearly enough to reason that out. You say something, but your speech is so slurred even you aren’t sure what you said. And before you get any idea of what to do, it’s over, and he leaves.

You lay there in the bed, stunned. The shock of what happened has sobered you up a little. You feel violated. You gather yourself up. You start crying. You finally get your head together and stumble out to report what just happened, visibly shaken as many witnesses can verify.

Why Dick feels like he needs to present this example, I don’t know. Does pretending something actually happened make it more true? Sure this kind of thing has happened but what does Richard Carrier’s imagined version have to do with actual events? An example maybe? An example of how Richard Carrier imagines something he never witnessed happened? The best reason I can come up with is his bitterness over the Penthouse rejection letters. Or maybe he is trying to jump on the same conjecture train PZ Myers had been riding up and down the rails.

 

Before I get too far ahead let’s look at some of Dick’s points, such as-

We should know the difference between anonymous authorship and unnamed sources

I agree, yes we should know the difference. Most people do. The problem here is lots of people do not trust PZ Myers cause he has taken his credibility and used it like a roll of toilet paper. He wipes his ass with it and then expects us to take it from him and say it smells like roses. It doesn’t smell like roses and I seriously doubt it ever will. If Dick Carrier can take toilet paper PZ has used, hold it to his nose, take a whiff of it, and have the same sensation as bringing his wife flowers on Valentines Day that’s nice for him. Most of what PZ says that isn’t directly related to his profession lacks credibility. I’m not saying everything he says is a lie but he has made mistakes when making claims about people’s actions, their character, and words in the past. PZ has never even shown an ability to acknowledge when he is wrong. Anyone who says that PZ has proven to be trustworthy and/or a reliable source in the past is clearly biased, tragically uninformed,  or just plain stupid. I’m sorry but there really is no other explanation.

Dick goes on-

We should also know the difference between criminal and civil standards of judgment; and between investigations and findings reached in a court to enforce public laws, and investigations and findings reached in private companies (for-profit and nonprofit, schools and hospitals, hotels and bars, banks and grocery stores) to enforce their own private conduct policies (e.g., you don’t have to be convicted in court to be banned from a campus for violating a school conduct policy, nor do you have to break any law for that, either).

First of all PZ Myers blog is not a civil court, a company, a school, or any other organization that has any standing. FTB is a bunch of people who know how to hit buttons on a keyboard. I guess Dick is okay with any group of people making any claim they think is credible about anyone as long as they say it is true. There is no need to hear all sides or get any details. There is no need to question or get the opinion of people who have no bias and are not involved in the matter. What  the hell do we even need lawyers for?  Someone says they were victimized, the accuser is known by a biologist with a popular blog, some other people say they have heard the same gossip,  the accused is guilty, case closed.

Does Dick think that the same method used by PZ to accuse Shermer is also used by companies and schools across the country to decide if someone was actually stealing  or if they actually cheated on a test? Well if that is true he should get out of the house more often. Sure an accusation can begin an investigation but it should be reported to responsible people who can check into it’s validity before punishing the accused. No every instance does not have to be decided in a courthouse but most reputable organizations follow a process that is similar to the one used by the court system because it is a good model. For Dick to gloss over that fact gives the impression he omitting important aspects in order to better support his bias.

Richard Carrier (Dick for short) then goes through and shares his fantasies about Michael Shermer’s sexual experiences.(see above) I think it’s safe to say that Dick Carrier has no idea if what he is writing is even remotely close to the truth. Unless he can travel back in time and make himself invisible so he can witness the events he wasn’t there so it all comes down to- A bunch of shit. Dick can write fictional stories. We can put him up there with other fictional writers like say…. L Ron Hubbard. Very impressive but not useful.

 

Dick continues on-

 But the preponderance of evidence (a civil court burden, whereby a claim need only have a better than 50% chance of being true, so even just a 50.1% chance of being true would win a case) is enough for me to conclude that the general picture is probably true: Shermer pursues sex with women a lot, both one-night stands and ongoing affairs, and he has often enough done so without telling his wife or his various girlfriends. His recent attempt to compel PZ Myers to retract his report of what a witness told him appeared to deny even this (that Shermer has lots of consensual trysts and affairs), which I think is disingenuous at this point.

At this point I think it is fair to ask Dick to make up his mind. Is he going to treat this as if PZ’s blog is a court of law (civil or otherwise) or is he going to claim that accepted legal procedures do not apply because it is not a court? You can’t have it both ways Dick. If we are to consider the comparison used above then it is important to note that in a civil case ALL SIDES OF THE ISSUE ARE HEARD BEFORE ANY JUDGEMENT.

How hard is it to understand? Richard Carrier is educated isn’t he? He is supposed to be intelligent. I’m sorry but this application of logic when it fits what you want to believe is exactly like the behavior of religious people. In their day to day life they apply a certain logic to everything they do because if they didn’t it would be almost impossible to function. When they consider religion a entirely different set of rules come into play because religion is different and isn’t subject to the kind of logic that allows you to function and stay alive in the world you actually live in.  Richard Carrier, PZ Myers, and all the other people who are using this emotional and/or flawed formula are doing the same thing.

I don’t know what the fuck has happened to Dick and PZ and all the other morons who want to try and convince us there is a public process which has no connection to the court system and it should be used to pronounce judgement on people accused of improper behavior or crimes. Sure there is a court of public opinion but people should be responsible when voicing their opinion.

Popular public personalities/figures should be aware that their opinion carries weight. When Jenny Mcarthy said

 The idea that vaccines are a primary cause of autism is not as crackpot as some might wish.

I would assume she thought she was telling the truth. She was incorrect though, the idea was based on completely useless or just plain made-up data. The doctor who had said there was a link was a crackpot. Jenny had given him credibility and we all know the damage that has been done due to her irresponsible behavior. She said it in an attempt to protect children much in the way PZ, Dick and others are claiming to be protecting women from rape. But at what cost? No matter how they want to twist and turn and selectively use examples the bottom line is they are accusing a man of breaking a serious law and they have portrayed him as guilty by way of hearsay, without allowing him to answer his accuser. In fact without allowing him to answer at all. Now that the accusation and presumption of guilt have been made he can not answer without legal council. He would be an idiot to do so, especially considering the types of buffoons he is dealing with here. We all want to know the truth but PZ the Clown has made that even more difficult by acting like a twit.

I’d really like anyone who also chooses to ride the PZ Myers conjecture express to imagine if it was them. Imagine if this was the typical process we used to find innocence /guilt. Even the court of public opinion doles out punishment. Punishment should be deserved. Whether it is deserved should depend  on fair unbiased people learning as much factual information about the issue as possible and listening to all sides in order to form and educated opinion about the how events occurred.

There is a big red flag here. This red flag has popped up time and time again when you read some posts at FTB. There is no link to an opposite point of view. If the writers were honest, thought they had a sound argument, and respected their readers enough to allow them to come to their own conclusions after hearing all sides, then they would give the reader a way to find that information. Whenever you don’t find a link to the original information or the opposing view being criticized, unless it is unavailable, then that is a red flag. This is an important point. There is usually a reason the other side isn’t being represented in some form and that reason is almost never good.

Richard Carrier: Inept Idiot or Ignorant Simpleton?

Divide and Conquer?

   I keep thinking PZ Myers will get it. One morning he will wake up, look in the mirror and have a sudden epiphany. He will finally realize that he doesn’t know everything and it’s been obvious to everyone the entire time. The hypocrisy he has displayed will give him a feeling of embarrassment that washes over him as if he had jumped into a pool of ice water. The character assassinations he has been guilty of will give him the same feeling of regret one would have after waking up naked on a park bench after a night of drinking. The name calling would cause him to imagine his dignity falling out of his body onto the floor wiggling around as if a pair of hands were grasping it and choking it to death until it withered into what resembled a dried up leaf and blew away. All the lies, bullshit, and excuses that seemed so clever at the time now are now revealed to him for what they really were, childish attempts to cover up behavior that should have been unthinkable. Suddenly he sees through the eyes of all the reasonable, rational people of the world and comes to the conclusion it is far past the time to shut the fuck up.

I couldn’t be more mistaken. Instead he offers this-This is not an update

Remember when Dick Carrier called for people to pick which side they wanted to be on? You were either A+ or you were less than A+. Dick stopped just short of calling for fighting in the streets. It took an overwhelming rejection of Dick and his dickish ideas on a youtube video of him at the 2013 American Atheist convention to drive the point home. It wasn’t easy to convince Dick he could be wrong. It is possible he is still convinced it’s all a bad dream and is just playing along until he wakes up and gets a chance to kick some non A+ ass.

Despite the public voting down the A+ rhetoric and ignoring calls to actively divide the atheist/skeptic community the first time around, PZ thinks it’s a good idea to make that call once again. Let me make sure you all understand what my point is- PZ Myers is actively calling for people to choose sides on a issue that has become the biggest dividing force among atheist/skeptic activists. Does anyone think this is a good suggestion? What kind of example are we if we can’t get along?

What rational, sane person would do this? What intelligent, educated adult makes such a childish public demand of people? In case PZ doesn’t know it there were already enough sides before he tried to force his ideology on all of us and condemn anyone who doesn’t agree completely with whatever he tells them to.

Sexual harassment? PZ says it is bad, bad, bad! The predatory habits of old white men must be stopped! They are running rampant and harassing women constantly! Oh, unless they do this…this is okay as long as your name is PZ.

Less For More, More Often

Twinkies are back. I like twinkies, a lot of the bad things you hear about the snack are bullshit or no worse than any other food product. The one thing I’d like to address is the difference in the old snack and its reincarnation, size. The new twinkies are slightly smaller. It should be noted that the size change isn’t something the current makers of twinkies came up with. The size change was actually made before Hostess went out of business the first time. It was an attempt to save on costs. The attempt was too little too late. That is not always the case and this type of business practice has become all the rage.

Ice cream makers re-defining the measurement of their product quietly. The candy bar makers making that candy bar just a bit thinner or maybe just the chocolate covering. Adding air to a product and pronouncing it “dreamy” or “delightfully light”  all the while the ruse is on. The only thing that has changed is your willingness to pay for empty space.

Paying for stuff filled with “air”? Sucker.

When is the last time you saw a product announce it was cutting its size and it’s price? That would at least be honest. It’s the sneaky factor that worries me. Everybody and their parent company are trying to pull a fast one on us just to make more money.

Tropicana was one company thinking of the customer. When there was a big freeze and it effected orange crops. They tried to think of a way to keep the freeze from having an impact on their customers. The solution they came up with was to drop the size of the container by 5oz from 64oz to 59oz.  That way the price per ounce went up but nobody was effected because what you don’t know can’t hurt you , right?

You’re gonna pay extra and like it. Get it?

Pre-mixed anti-freeze, but there is no mention the mix consists of anti-freeze and ….water. The price? Sometimes even more that you would pay for anti-freeze without that hard to get extra water they add.

When you sell a million of something all you have to do is cut a little to make a lot. Sometimes companies are bulking up the packaging to make it appear like you are getting the same amount of product or even more when that isn’t the case. Revlon is pulling this trick with it’s lipgloss. Revlon decided to bulk up packaging for Superlustrous glosses but you are actually getting less product.  The new version only has .13 ounces, while the old version had .20 ounces. Guess what? Priced the same.

Jif peanut butter just reduced their 18oz jar by 11% no notice, nothing. They are counting on you being distracted or just dumb. This plan is working wonderfully so far and it is spreading like wildfire.

If that isn’t enough  Angel Soft was bragging on it’s packaging it contains “70% more.” Then the next packaging design dropped the 70% claim and added a more subtle change from 400sq ft to 354sq ft  while keeping the price the same.

Is it a problem? Here are some more products  that have been downsizing on the downlow. Oreos, Dawn soap, Dial soap, Bounty, Pampers, Gillette Fusion, Hefty, Kleenex *

I’m not sure how we stop it but if you contact the companies who are trying to quietly pick our pockets some will send you coupons as a sort of “we’re sorry”. It will also let them know we are paying attention and don’t like being taken advantage of.

Here are links to a couple companies to file a complaint about this downsizing trend.

Kleenex

Kraft/Nabisco

 

 

*source http://incredibleshrinkinggroceries.com/

Other links-

Consumerist

Consumerworld

Less For More, More Often

Porn be gone!

Baptist preacher Jay Dennis of the First Baptist Church at the Mall in Lakeland, Florida wants to stop porn. It’s worse than crack cocaine he says. He says it’s been called the new bubonic plague. Maybe a little dramatic considering without treatment, the bubonic plague kills about two thirds of infected humans within 4 days. In the 14th century it killed an estimated 25 million people, or 30–60% of the European population. We would be in serious trouble if jay was right about the plague thing.

I went and checked out The First Baptist Church at the Mall  and it is legit. Jay Dennis even mentions atheists in one of his posts “I am Intolerant of the ACLU and Atheist Groups who tout First Amendment Rights yet attempt to shut down any praying in government or education, want to remove Christmas from our vocabulary in the public sector, and won’t rest until they remove every cross from any public place”  ( I contacted him about this already)

Jay is currently taking on porn. He claims it is the #1 issue effecting men in the Christian church. He says 80% of men in the church are struggling with porn on some level. To battle this evil which must involve Satan somehow. Jay has started Join 1 Million Men.

Join 1 Million Men is “a daily process of surrendering to the holy spirit” and some other stuff and biblical truth. Jay doesn’t care if you have to “destroy your personal computer” you need to get porn out of your life because it causes men to become useless masturbating bums who don’t go to work and need to touch their penis just like a crack head needs a rock.

Jay is asking men to take the pledge to remove porn from their lives from now until they go to heaven. I guess if you go to hell you are out of luck but if you go to heaven that’s the end of the pledge and you’ll be watching the archangel banging the hell (so to speak) out of some naughty nurses before you know it!

According to the anti-porn crusader the chances your son has seen some porn is nearly 100%.  Satan uses porn as a tool ( get it?) to do evil stuff to your children and distract them from the usual stuff 10 year old boys do, like masturbation. Hey that doesn’t make any…..whatever.    The catch is you have to be a boy 10 years old or over to join in the pledge so all you 6-9 years old boys get your porn in while you can cause before you know it you will be limited to watching naked characters on the cartoon network. At least until you get to heaven, then it’s “Debbie Does The Last Supper” every Friday night for eternity.

I checked out “the wall” where men can sign and pledge to remove all the porn from their lives. So far a little over 500 men have made the pledge to smash their computers if needed to keep from watching porn. I guess that’s a lot. It’s more than I expected to see.

Think of how happy this guy would be watching porn. Maybe there is a problem

While there is a certain percentage of the population that claim to have an addiction to porn so serious that it negatively effects their lives I don’t understand the need to remove it totally from everyone’s life. There are 10x as many people who watch porn and have no problem.

I  started thinking – Jay seems to be in denial of is a lot of women watch porn too. What about them? Jay also doesn’t consider the number of couples who may have saved their marriage by making porn part of their sexual routine. He is out to remove it altogether. Well my questions were soon answered. There is a wall for women too. The wall for women is not to pledge that they wont look at porn it is a pledge to help stop men from watching porn. Maybe he figures if the men get rid of it the women will have to obey. There is one tiny problem. Only 168 women have committed to stopping the men from looking at porn vs 500+ men who said they would remove it from their lives. I see a possible conflict arising from this whole thing.

Another  thing Jay never mentions is those damn Mormons. Those perverts watch more online porn than any other state in the USA according to the last poll I saw on the subject. Does he have plans to deal with them in the future?

I’ll give jay credit, he does seem to be taking a hardline on this, he isn’t gonna go soft on porn. Even if he has to bang on and look behind every green door in his city, he will be grabbing people’s knockers and having a three-way with couples across his town to spread his news. He will go down every alley, even if he makes himself look like a boob in the process. Jay knows in the end he can hold his head erect and know that when it came to porn he rubbed it out as hard and fast as he could.

He even has a booklet called “The Hardcore Battle Plan” that comes in one version for men and one for women.

Here is Jay’s video promoting his Join 1 Million Men crusade.

Introduction from New Hope Publishers on Vimeo.

 

I’d also like to offer my help to Jay Dennis by offering to take any porn his followers want to get rid of and making sure they never see it again. Who says I never rise to the occasion?

Porn be gone!

Small Battle Won

 

Closed- No apologies will be issued

   While talking with Ally Fogg from FTB this past week I brought up the dungeon. The dungeon was a page where PZ Myers would list the people he had banned from his blog in a strange childlike manner. It was like   looking at the notches on a belt. For every character assassination there was a name and the manner in which their character has been killed with libel by PZ.  Ally claimed no knowledge of it and after the conversation I wondered what the dungeon looked like since PZ was banning anyone who was associated with the slymepit and he claimed I had created more than 30 fake accounts then there should be quite a list. At least 30 names supposedly on account of me alone.

When I went to look….the dungeon was gone. How could this be? I wondered how, what , why? Could it be that PZ had finally seen the light and recognized his behavior was juvenile and unfair? Could we count on PZ to focus on real issues instead of the regular trashing of someone based on some paranoid delusion in PZ’s head?  Then I found this. It’s a post from June 10th 2013 called No More Mr. Nice Guy. (allow me to suggest PZ get someone to write his titles for him cause they usually make no sense)

After reading the post I was a little let-down. PZ never mentions how his dungeon may have been unfair  or a bad idea.

He says

So yes, I’m fed up and I’ll be taking stronger action against these trolls and other assholes. But that does not in any way imply that I’m silencing disagreement…but that’s the message the trolls and assholes want to send out, to foment more harassment.I don’t ban that many people, and those that I do kick out, I try to be open about it, listing their names on the Dungeon page. Which leads to the other lie: that I’m unusually censorious. It turns out that being transparent about necessary banning actions, while just about every other goddamn blog out there just invisibly disappears objectionable junk, leads these phonies to make up more lies about policies here.

So I’m also changing something else. The Dungeon is gone. From now on, if you’re a jerk, you just get zapped and disappear forever, with no documentation, just like it’s done on the blogs of the assholes who accuse me of banning people for disagreeing with me.

It’ll save me a little work, too.

It’s kinda strange cause the people PZ disagrees with are often referred to as “assholes”, “jerks” or “slymers” which are all also the same terms he uses when talking about the people he has banned. I wonder, could this be the cause of some of the confusion PZ claims there is among critics of his policies?  I think so. PZ needs to be more clear or admit that as soon as someone doesn’t choose to see things his way in what he considers a proper amount of time they are told to shut up. If that instruction is not followed then they are banned. PZ doesn’t ban you for disagreeing, he bans you for not shutting up about your disagreement and for not changing your mind to agree with him. (note: you can also be banned for saying uncomplimentary things about his “horde”)

PZ also says he will be taking “stronger action” against the trolls and assholes. I don’t know what action he is planning on taking since there really is very little he can do about people who are posting comments unless he starts to approve comments.

Now if we could get PZ Myers on board the “No personal attacks” train then we will be on our way to a more peaceful interaction between not just skeptics and atheists but with believers too. I think a good way to ease into that would be for PZ to start better controlling his comment section. In the past he has bragged about how tough his horde is when in actuality they are just mean and intent on hurting people.Very little of their content is valid counter arguments, it is mostly personal insults, playground caliber name calling and threats. The number of people who seem to use PZ’s comment section as a way to vent frustrations is disturbing.

After all is said and done even with PZ making a clear attempt pretend this is all just because he choose to do it and the motivation was all the lies being told about him…it is a win.

PZ did something right by taking the dungeon page down and I will give him credit for that. It’s still too bad it wasn’t done because PZ recognized it was unfair and wrong but at least he has been stopped from continuously misrepresenting people. Pressure from others was also a factor so there is hope.

Not only that but it saves me a little work too.

Side-note: People can quit assuming I am somehow ‘obsessed’ with PZ too since it took a month for me to notice he posted about the removal I obviously don’t pay nearly the attention he claims I do. Sorry PZ, wrong about me again buddy, keep trying.

 

 

Small Battle Won

Oh-boycott

In case you haven’t heard enough of Rebecca Watson telling you what to do she is at it again here. She is pissed that a white male is allowed to have a voice. Even though he spoke about a legitimate issue involving feminism. It wasn’t what she wanted to talk about and most importantly  it wasn’t said by the gender she wanted to see/hear talking about it. How can anyone call themselves a skeptic and be so obviously biased? Follow that with the fact she is so ignorant of her own bias she parades it around screaming and pointing at it without even realizing it.

The Center For Inquiry issued a statement that supported Ron Lindsay and it is straight to the point. Rebecca can’t understand how it is possible to make a point by being clear and leaving out any rhetoric. She thinks that you need to draw things out , you need to insult people, build some resentment. Rebecca prefers to be vague so people might take your point the wrong way and then you can slam them and tell them how stupid they are. She likes to make it sound like people who disagree with her believe in the exact opposite. Kinda like the way religious people will reply to someone who says they don’t believe in god. “Oh your one of them satanists then huh?”  because simple people need to think in simple terms. If you don’t like steak you are a vegetarian. You don’t drink? You are a recovering alcoholic. You aren’t a feminist? You hate women. See? Simple. To consider there are many different perspectives or maybe there is more than one way to solve a problem is too much trouble. You can’t judge people if you are trying to understand where they are coming from. Besides, where is the drama in that ? I imagine Rebecca would have liked to see CFI  reply with a statement that looked more like this-

Rebecca Watson’s Center for Inquiry Board of Directors Statement on the CEO and the Rebecca Watson Women in Secularism 2 Conference

The mission of the Rebecca Watson Center for Inquiry is to foster a secular feminist society based on Rebecca Watson, science, freedom of inquisition , Rebecca Watson, and feminist values.

The Rebecca Watson Center for Inquiry, unincluding its CEO whether he likes it or not, is dedicated to advancing the status of Rebecca Watson, women and promoting Rebecca Watson’s issues, and this was the motivation for Rebecca Watson’s sponsorship of the two Rebecca Watson Women in Secularism conferences. The CFI Board & Rebecca Watson wishes to express its unhappiness with all men especially white men except PZ MYERS (cause he is the one man who ‘gets us’ ) at the recent Women in Secularism Conference 2.

Rebecca Watson & CFI believes in respectful debate and dialogue in other places maybe but not here. We appreciate worship Rebecca Watson and the many insights and varied opinions communicated to us by her. Going forward, Rebecca Watson will endeavor to work with all elements of the secular movement to force our her values on them and strengthen our solidarity as we struggle together for full equality and then some for only women around the world.

But…that didn’t happen. So now she is calling for a boycott of CFI. She is not going to do anymore to support them especially because they haven’t invited her to. Rebecca here is a little something you should know. You can’t quit a job after you get fired. Maybe keep that in mind if you ever get a job. Unless you have one now , I’m not sure cause you never seem to talk much about any actual work you’ve done.

Maybe you could get a job looking after  PZ’s  ‘horde’. you know cleaning out the cages and putting the hose on ‘em every so often. Patting them on the head whenever some son of a bitch doesn’t give them a trigger warning and they melt down. ….just a thought.

Rebecca goes on to cry about the harassment she keeps getting and finally we see an example of the extreme hatred

How could anyone dare suggest Rebecca lives in another universe? Is there no end to the vile behavior Rebecca must endure?!  If this is the current level of ‘hate’ she is getting and it still is too much I hope she stays away from playgrounds and catholic schools cause the shit that goes on in those places is off the hook!

I’d like to hear, just once,  Rebecca make a plea to people asking for them to try and find common ground or to be less confrontational. What would have happened if Rebecca would have released her own statement a while back. Maybe something like this -

“Look, I can see there is a huge problem that seems to be doing harm to atheists and skeptics. I’m outspoken and I can see how I could have maybe just a little contributed to this problem. I’d like to help fix it by making some things clear- I’d like to tell all the people who are making actual threats towards me- I’m calling the cops. Those of you who are all talk – STFU cause I don’t give a shit. Every single shit message you send gets deleted, your time wasted. Thanks for spending some of your limited time on earth  thinking of me, I’m flattered. To all the reasonable people including the ones who disagree- Let’s focus on the things we agree on and by working together maybe we will come to understand where each of us is coming from. We are going to have arguments and fights but let’s realize when we have taken it to the point where no one benefits  except the people we both disagree with and that means we all lose.

Or we can just build a list of people/groups who don’t do what we want and withdraw support until we are only supporting skepticism by donating time to…well there isn’t anyone who does things exactly like we would do them ourselves so where does that leave us?

Rebecca, thanks for all you work to help make the world a place where skeptics don’t tolerate opposing opinions and no one supports rational thought and drama is favored over rational debate. Your contribution is noted.

Oh-boycott

David Silverman In Wonderland

David Silverman, the current president of American Atheists was invited to and agreed (after some haggling) to be a guest on the Brave Hero podcast which is hosted by Justin Vacula (va-cool-a) and Karla Porter (chill-g-rll) I know them both and have found them to be honest and they both tend to take a more formal (professional) approach towards conflict. That podcast took place on June, 15 2013. David was invited to further discuss issues raised in a twitter conversation with Justin. These are my thoughts on that podcast and some related interaction I have had.

Freethought Blogs -We fail with more than just words

Before I talk about the Brave Hero podcast I’ll give you a little background on my interaction with David to be open and honest about things. I’ve had David Silverman on my podcast as a guest, I’ve had a couple conversations with him in person. I’ve had an ongoing conversation with him in the last week in private messages about the conflict that has been ongoing between atheist/skeptics and FTB/A+/skepchick poser skeptics. Nothing extensive, David didn’t seem to have many facts about Justin Vacula and his role in the conflict so I figured he would appreciate being better informed. That way he could form a fair opinion based on truths.

David was more than happy to discuss the issue with me but insisted I was associated with “the shit”. He wasn’t nearly as interested in listening to what I had to say as he was in getting me to understand his version of the conflict. It was as if I was just making things up. At times it was like I had said nothing at all. David just walked by facts as if they were not even there, he didn’t even stumble over them a little. It is like David doesn’t need any facts or details, he has the answers already.

So David agrees to appear on Brave Hero radio after he and Justin Vacula (vac-cool-a) had a dispute over Justin denouncing what David refers to as “the shit”. I’m not sure what “the shit” is exactly. So far, “the shit” seems to be defined as stuff that David calls “the shit”. That is as clear a definition as any David has offered (which is none/nothing/nada)

David dives in right at the start and you can hear the condescension immediately. When asked for some examples of what it is exactly David thinks is “the shit” in the atheist community he replies that he doesn’t need to provide any examples.  David then goes on to point out that there is no way for men to know what it is like to be a woman. It is one of the few valid points that David makes, the problem is Justin has not made the demand that women shut up  or claimed to know better what it’s like to be a woman than even women do. Never once have I heard him even come close to either of those things.

David gives me the impression that he thinks it is his place to scold Justin “to help make him a better activist”. If being a better activist means over-talking the host when on a podcast or steamrolling over another person during conversation then David Silverman is the best activist I’ve ever seen. PZ Myers calls me a ranting asshole? At least I can get my facts straight. David has a problem with that. He also seems to be hung up on a few catch phrases. “Go fuck a knife” is one “You are too ugly to be raped” is another. David also seems to be under the impression that fake twitter accounts are a major factor in people leaving atheist activism. He gives Jennifer McCreight as an example of someone who was forced out. From my understanding Jennifer has some issues that contributed to her leaving that had nothing to do with fake twitter accounts. I’m not sure what David thinks is going to result from something called ‘boobquake’ when it goes viral but if he expects the world to mind it’s manners when it comes to boobs he is living in a fantasy land. I’m not saying it is acceptable behavior but people should accept the fact men are often pigs who say rude things to women, it is going to happen.

David  continues to insist that Justin act with professionalism. I’m left wondering what would happen if say if Justin took David’s example for professionalism and embraced it. Would yelling over people and using vague undefined terms while he making false accusations and ranting about things he knows absolutely nothing about be a better approach than offering to discuss issues in a open public forum without personal attacks? I think any mature intelligent adult would say no to even suggest such a thing is shit.

David Silverman repeatedly dodges any attempts to point out how his relationships are just like the ones he is calling Justin on. PZ Myers has behaved in incredibly irresponsible ways. PZ should consider changing his legal name to Libel Lyers (nice ring) at this point.  I can’t believe David is totally ignorant to the  actions and words coming from PZ or the number of people he has pissed off because he isn’t willing to accept people as allies. He makes it quite clear he has no use for people who disagree with him or his attempts to force a certain mindset be accepted by atheists.

I get the fact that David Silverman is probably sick of the petty fighting, he is sick of the childish and chickenshit attacks on women. Let it be known I am tired of it too. There were things I thought I could count on from people who were skeptics and atheists as a general rule. I have learned a lesson. People, all types of people have the potential to act like fucking childish, self centered, judgmental, hyper-sensitive,  humorless, biased, idiots. I will no longer underestimate anyone’s ability to fit that description. I will however wait for them to fit the description before I apply it to them. Until then they get a basic deserved respect from me by default. They get the benefit of the doubt. I will also always be willing to settle any differences by talking to people. I will not sit on my hands and watch as religion is replaced by  something just as dangerous hidden under a veil of someone’s righteous ideology.

I am bothered by David Silverman’s behavior. As I have said before I had respect for him but I can not respect his actions in this case given I know for a fact he knew better. Here is my direct reply to him just  so no one gets it twisted.-

    David, I gave you examples of things that were done/said to me that are far more damaging than any Photoshop of FTB bloggers holding We (heart) Justin signs. There are dozens and dozens of examples on the net of other people with the same stories. You were deliberately deceptive in your conversation with Justin about association. Do you think he or anyone else doesn’t know that?

I made that Photoshop David and it was for a reason. Those people, just about EVERY SINGLE ONE in that photo suggested he not attend or even attempted to keep Justin from attending that conference. That is wrong and for you to be critical of Justin for trying to make light of actions that are sickening and juvenile demonstrates a clear favoritism on your part.

     Justin DID NOT post Surly Amy’s address on purpose. I was in contact with Justin during that event. He never wanted to attack Amy in any way. He was trying to defend himself. He posted the address by accident. He got chewed out for his mistake as soon as he made it by myself and others. It was a stupid mistake. For you to accuse him of malice is bullshit. Listen closely-I WAS THERE. YOU ARE WRONG.

Who do you think you are fooling David? Do you really think anyone who knows anything about this is going to have any respect for you after hearing your skewed version of events? There are 600+ members of the slymepit, you gave the impression that you think they are all making rape threats, that isn’t even close to true. To say they are all “shit” is just dumb.

       A couple of isolated comments by someone with a 12 year old maturity level are not a solid base for your argument. You are the shit in this instance David. You are full of shit, you are spreading shit, and you have stepped in shit. You can’t even define your own term. At one point you told Justin to own his own ownership? Really? I had a lot of respect for you David, I thought you would be at least fair, shit I thought you would at least be civil. You couldn’t even have a conversation, you had to try and intimidate Justin. What if he responds in the same manner as you have to him? I’m sorry I was mistaken and I’m embarrassed for you David.

 

One of the high points of the podcast was the chat. Someone under the name PZ Myers was part of the conversation. I have reason to believe it was him because I can’t think of anyone else who would claim to be even in jest. Could it be PZ finally gained the testicular fortitude to venture out from his protected little den infested by the inept horde and stepped into the real world? I will give him credit for that if it is the case. I will also note he was up to his same old tricks blabbering away as if his psychic powers allow him to know me and what I am thinking at all times. Claiming that my responses to his attacks on my character are reason to dismiss anything I may have to say. If you are reading this PZ keep in mind what I told you in the chat. It would do you wonders to chill the fuck out and listen to people just for a little while instead of treating them like shit for daring to disagree. Just because someone doesn’t agree with you it doesn’t make them wrong.

Here is a link to the Brave Hero podcast 

Here is a link to the chat,( highly recommended reading )

 

Note- As this is posted David has responded to my last message. While we still have major differences in opinion. It should be noted that David Silverman is willing to continue to discuss those differences in a respectful manner. If I am going to criticize I must also be able to acknowledge reasonable behavior and willingness to at least try and find common ground. After the reasoned, respectable behavior we have seen from slymepitters who have been in discussion with Stephanie Zvan.  I wonder what will be said when it is proven that people who are part of the slymepit are not  hateful monsters after all. Time will tell, I hope some people are ready to put their social justice feet where their mouths are.

I will be following up on this, trust me.

David Silverman In Wonderland

In Support of Ron Lindsay

 

 

In case you didn’t know it Ron Lindsay  has been catching some slack for his opening speech at the Women in Secularism 2 conference.

There has been  a call to remove Mr Lindsay from his position. I can’t tell you how much this bothers me. The fact it has even been called for is incredibly troublesome. The people who are calling for such action have got to be ignorant on a level that should shame them. We are better than this, we are smarter than this, and we have more common sense…at least we should have. Just because a group yells loud does not mean they have a better position on an issue or have the best interests of everyone in mind. In this case I think it is clear one small segment is attempting to claim they represent a large portion of the community when that simply is not the case.

You can support Ron Lindsay by sending a email in support to  tflynn@centerforinquiry.net

Here is a copy of what I sent them-

  I would like to voice my support for Ron Lindsay, the speech he made at the beginning of the WIS2 conference and his overall attitude through a very stressful period in the atheist/skeptical circles.

  I raised a daughter as a single father. She has become a mature self confident compassionate member of society. I have no interest in supporting anyone I believe would hinder my daughter or any other woman in achieving anything she aspires to. I volunteered time to help create the media for launch of Secular Woman. While I would not call myself a feminist because of the unclear definition, I can say I speak out on behalf of and do work to help achieve equal rights for women.

       In my opinion Ron did nothing that could be considered harmful to women, their rights, or anyone else’s rights. This trend towards removing people from positions because they have upset a vocal portion of the community is a dangerous one.

     The main criticism of the opening speech seems to be who was the source of the speech. Ron, being a middle-aged white man was being criticized before he even finished speaking. The outrage displayed that a man dare voice an opinion at a woman’s conference is unbelievable. I ask you to consider the speech not knowing who the speaker was. If you can read that speech not knowing who is delivering it and not be offended to the point of outrage then Ron Lindsay did nothing wrong except be born white and male. When you start to judge or penalize people for the way they were created you do everyone a disservice.

  There is an attempt to force what can only be described as an agenda on the atheist/skeptical community. This agenda has nothing to do with atheism and it does not stand up to examination by skeptics. Still certain people are attempting to make it part of these ways of thinking. The CFI is just the latest in a list of groups /people who have been targeted. I hope they follow the lead of every other group effected by this type of behavior and continue to embrace facts and integrity over propaganda and falsehoods.

 Thank you for your time

‘Reap’ Paden

 

In Support of Ron Lindsay

PZ Myers PLEASE Get A Fucking Clue

 

PZ gives his best answer

So I try to avoid PZ Myers comment section. Between that angry bitter hater of life Caine de Flop, brownian the master of self doxxing (see here) and crying like a baby and the rest of the uninformed dolts that reside in there I can feel my IQ drop as I read their fictional version of events. The only thing being horded in there is ignorance.

Since Ophelia Benson is doing everything possible to avoid anyone paying attention to her by threatening to make public the name of a commenter who dared tell her to “get some help” (good advice IMO) I found myself checking out the contribution PZ has made to the latest self-made drama.

As I wade through the attempts to justify what is obviously wrong behavior on Ophelia’s part and the random incorrect accusation that I somehow provided brownian’s real name to the public, which never happened unless K is his last name. I only learned that much because of brownian providing it. In fact brownian outed himself (see here)

Brownian, OM

December 16, 2008

AnthonyK, that’s funny! I have to cancel out the Rev. BDC’s typos lest the universe annihilate itself.

Incidentally, I’m also an Anthony K in RL, so it kinda freaks me out when I see your name!

(That, and I’m a teensy bit baked. Uh-oh. Munchies. I’m gonna go put rosemary on something and eat it.)

 As if that wasn’t enough I also see someone ask a question

iiandyiiii

29 May 2013 at 1:36 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I’ve been reading PZ’s blog almost every day for the past year or so, but I still don’t understand the basics of this ongoing debate/feud/flame war/whatever between (as far as I can tell) pro-feminist atheists like PZ and anti-feminist atheists… it seems like it started quite a while ago, and (again, as far as I can tell) every post seems to refer to past events that I’m not aware of. Is there a “sum up” post somewhere, or can someone just sum it up for me?

PZ Myers, being a wealth of information and ready to provide complete bullshit on demand jumps to answer like this-

PZ Myers

29 May 2013 at 1:40 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

There is no summary. There’s a faction that detests feminism, really hates women like Rebecca Watson who get all uppity and point out gender inequities, and they’ve gone on a two year long temper tantrum of irrational gibberish, photoshop games, misrepresentation, fuming about anti-harassment policies, and calling us ‘cunts’ and ‘manginas’, among other colorful sex-based slurs. The good thing is that all the assholes have conveniently decamped to a place called the slymepit where they spend all their time whining about FtB and Skepchicks.

I can hardly find the words to describe my feelings about this reply from PZ. I will attempt it though….WHAT THE FUCK?! Where does PZ Myers live ? Does he even try to pay attention?  How can he describe the bullshit he has played a major part in causing like this? I can’t lay all the blame on PZ but holy shit reality must be a tiny little dot in whatever sky it is  PZ sees when he looks up. This isn’t even close to accurate. If he does think this is true or even if he doesn’t and is just saying it in order to prevent another person from learning- PZ is delusional and disconnected from the real events and opinions of others. I can’t believe even his comment section would let that  pass……guess what? It has gone unchallenged as of the time of this post….. we have a serious problem.

PZ Myers PLEASE Get A Fucking Clue

What's in a Name? / Where is the Diversity?

PZ calls the rude inept simpletons who rule his comment section with the swift justice of a sharp rock but with half the intellect “the horde”.

I wondered where PZ came up with the name so I looked it up. Here are some of the results. You might find them interesting.

•  The Evil Horde, more frequently referred to as the Horde, is a group of fictional characters featured in He-Man and the Masters of the Universe and She-Ra: Princess of Power cartoons, comics and toys.

Is this where PZ got the idea for ‘the horde’?

Okay, yea I can see that.  Really does fit some of the posts I’ve seen and the type I picture expressing themselves in that manner.

Or maybe this-

• The Horde MC: A national biker gang with a reputation for extreme violence and racial bigotry. One visit to Farmington was a robbery that ended with the culprits arrested by the Strike Team. In season 6, the Horde are mentioned as buying a large shipment of meth. Ronnie goes undercover and this results in the arrest of three of the Horde bikers.
  

Hmmmm…racial bigotry. Doesn’t really seem to fit. Odd picking a name that has been represented  in this manner. Didn’t PZ bother to check what the name would conjure up in people’s heads when they heard it? Guess not.

Or maybe this-

Seems a bit too sexy for PZ. There is the time he tried to hook up with a woman for sex on stage so maybe …

This looks like it has potential-

 

    Or maybe PZ was thinking of the historical account of Horde -

• 
  

     After founding the Mongol Empire and being proclaimed “Genghis Khan”, he started the Mongol invasions that resulted in the conquest of most of Eurasia. These campaigns were often accompanied by wholesale massacres of the civilian populations. An estimated that 30 million people were killed under the rule of the Mongol Empire

  
  

     During the Black Death plague the Mongol army was reportedly withering from the disease, they decided to use the infected corpses as a biological weapon. The corpses were catapulted over city walls, infecting the inhabitants. 

 

Well….that’s not good. Who the hell would name their regular commenters after that fucked-up mess? PZ must not have given much thought to the title. He may as well call them “The Clan”  They were total assholes but at least they didn’t lob infected dead bodies at people.

Nah that name wouldn’t work either. Who would believe such a diverse group of people would call themselves  ”The Clan” ?  In order to do that they would have to be all white people and that couldn’t possibly be…. Oh wait…..

Behold the diversity that is “the horde” !!

I’m a bit confused…. If a person of color goes into the comment section of PZ’s blog is this the group that is going to tear them to shreds?  I know there have been victims of ‘the horde” who were minorities. What is up with that?  Something about that doesn’t seem right.

Well at least we have the Freethought Bloggers they must be represented by some diversity right?

Well….there are mostly women…. that’s good right? Maybe the FTB bloggers with darker skin just don’t go to conferences or something, I really don’t know  much about how that works at FTB. It would maybe be a good idea to help minorities feel comfortable about attending or maybe they could use some help with the cost. Discount tickets for those who aren’t being paid as well as other people. I’ve heard that happens.  If you are going to talk about it so much then it seems action should follow. Jason Thibeault managed to get his trip paid for with donations didn’t he? Is Canadian a minority?  I’m pretty sure it isn’t.

 

What's in a Name? / Where is the Diversity?